From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, discover the world of human spaceflight with NASA every week on the official podcast of the Johnson Area Heart in Houston, Texas. Hearken to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it potential.
On episode 333, the CHAPEA crew checks in on their ninth month in a Mars simulated habitat, and a Mars structure knowledgeable explains CHAPEA’s position in NASA’s long-term plans to explore the Crimson Planet. That is the ninth audio log of a month-to-month sequence. Recordings had been despatched from the CHAPEA crew all through March 2024. The dialog with Michelle Courtney was recorded on April 1, 2024.
Transcript
Host (Gary Jordan): Houston, we have now a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Area Heart, Episode 333, “Mars Audio Log #9.” I’m Gary Jordan and I’ll be your host right now. On this podcast, we carry within the consultants, scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you realize what’s happening on the planet of human spaceflight and extra. We’re again with one other audio log from the CHAPEA crew. CHAPEA, or Crew Well being and Efficiency Exploration Analog, is a yearlong analog mission in a habitat proper right here on Earth that’s simulating very intently what it might be prefer to reside on Mars. We’re fortunate sufficient to have month-to-month check-ins with the crew Commander Kelly Haston, Flight Engineer Ross Brockwell, Medical Officer Nathan Jones, and Science Officer Anca Selariu. To satisfy the wants of becoming in with this analog and simulating vital communication delays between Earth and Mars that prohibit us from having a reside dialog, the crew is recording an audio log based mostly off of the questions that we draft for them.
On this episode, we play the recording of their ninth month within the habitat, which is right here on the NASA Johnson Area Heart, and was recorded in March 2024. We’re additionally bringing on a particular visitor to study much more about CHAPEA. This month is on a broader subject of Mars structure. CHAPEA helps scientists to grasp what it’s like from the human well being and efficiency perspective to reside on Mars. NASA’s present human exploration initiatives with sustained human exploration of low Earth orbit and the Moon function a pathway for getting us to the Crimson Planet. And NASA has outlined this pathway in public documentation. You’ll be able to look it up now. The URL is nasa.gov/moontomarsarchitecture. We’ve had a couple of latest episodes that increase on this structure as a result of there’s quite a bit to it, however on this episode, we’re bringing on a particular visitor to assist us perceive how CHAPEA suits into the combination.
We’re welcoming Michelle Courtney to the podcast who goes by Coco, and he or she’s the lead for crew help techniques integration for the Mars Structure staff, additionally based mostly right here on the Johnson Area Heart. Coco helps us to unravel extra about Mars mission structure and the way CHAPEA suits in with the story. We’re lucky this month that we get to listen to from all 4 crew members on the identical time. So let’s begin our episode with a check-in from all 4 CHAPEA crew members, after which dive into Mars mission structure with Michelle Courtney. Take pleasure in.
[Music]
Kelly Haston: Hello, that is CHAPEA 1, the Mars analog mission out of Johnson Area Heart, and we’re right here doing the recording for Houston We Have a Podcast episode 9. My identify is Kelly Haston and I’m the commander.
Nathan Jones: I’m Nate Jones, I’m the medical officer.
Ross Brockwell: I’m Ross Brockwell. I’m the flight engineer.
Anca Selariu: And I’m Anca Selariu, science officer.
Nathan Jones: We often begin off by saying how all the pieces’s going and I’d similar to to report that all the pieces remains to be going very effectively for us all. I couldn’t be happier with the crew that I’m right here with, and I simply am so grateful for all the subject material consultants at NASA who assist us get by this mission. Subsequent query, it says to inform us about among the highlights of the actions and duties of the final month.
Kelly Haston: So we’ve had, as normal, a packed month. This month has truly been actually superior, specifically for our EVAs. So the EVA consultants have offered us with an actual, actually strong set of duties and actions out on the Martian floor. It’s an enormous problem to attempt to full all of our duties. In order that’s been actually superior. We additionally managed to hit EVA 100 within the final month as effectively. So we’re actually excited to have completed so many EVAs throughout this mission up to now, and we sit up for doing much more.
Nathan Jones: One other huge factor I’d say that we’re all actually enthusiastic about is the truth that crops are again for us. Love that.
Kelly Haston: Why do you like them?
Nathan Jones: I imply, I actually benefit from the odor of the crops, the sound of the water operating. The lights from these crops are only a complete lot higher shade spectrum than the conventional lights we have now. And the meals’s not dangerous.
Ross Brockwell: I’ll second each of these. I used to be simply pondering whilst you had been speaking while you mentioned, “Why do you just like the crops?” For instance, the opposite evening, I sat right down to make a salad. I had all these huge plans for all the great issues I may use to mix with the recent greens, and I ended up simply sitting and consuming the recent greens with no additions, no dressing, no something, simply consuming them trigger they had been so good. In order that’s actually nice to have these. And second on the EVAs. I imply, they’ve been actually, actually enjoyable.
Anca Selariu: Identical for me. I second all the pieces.
Nathan Jones: I had one different factor I wished to say for these on the market apprehensive in regards to the poor drone rover scenario from our poor decapitated rover. It was repaired ultimately. Sadly, it did undergo a rollover at one level after that within the final month or so. Nevertheless it’s nonetheless working. I’m joyful to report that it’s up and operating.
Ross Brockwell: Like numerous NASA rovers, it’s very resilient, that little man.
Kelly Haston: We could come again to some highlights as we take into consideration them, however we’re going to maneuver on to the subsequent query, which is to explain a private high quality that you simply assume is invaluable for a CHAPEA mission.
Anca Selariu: I’ll begin by saying, I believe self-awareness is first, take care of the staff above oneself and absolute dedication to the mission. Okay, these are three, however—
[Laughs]
Kelly Haston: I like these ones. I’d add resilience is one which I believe we have now. We’ve had I believe, a very good run on this mission. The crew has all the time been actually optimistic, actually joyful to be right here, however it’s a lengthy mission, and we’re away from our households and pals and, you realize, there are issues from the surface world that we will’t all the time assist or take or assist individuals with. And so I believe that resilience to beat that and nonetheless preserve your expertise in right here and the issues that Anca simply spoke of is a part of the factor that I believe is actually necessary right here, too.
Nathan Jones: I believe a key trait can be endurance. The whole lot simply takes longer. And should you assume it’s going to take some time, it takes even longer than that. We’re simply now below 21 minutes for the primary time in over 4 months. It takes lower than 21 minutes to get a message to mission management after which clearly one other 21 minutes to get it again. And we can have spent over six months at higher than 20 minutes, I consider earlier than the mission’s over. So simply numerous endurance, oodles, these different, I’d prefer to reiterate what different stuff you guys talked about. These are nice too.
Ross Brockwell: A phrase that got here to thoughts for me was perspective. I believe that may be thought of a trait, proper? However simply protecting in thoughts what’s necessary. , protecting the massive image in thoughts, understanding when to make a fuss about one thing and when to let one thing go. , you sort of should make selections on the place to place your power and also you study the way it’s greatest spent, what to fret about, what to not fear about, what to roll with. So I believe possibly flexibility is part of that too. However perspective and adaptability, I’d say are crucial.
So what’s one exercise or merchandise that as a crew you notice there are not any means you could possibly do with out it? I’d say the new water heater we use to cook dinner might be one on that listing. One of many primary methods we put together meals. So it’d be fairly powerful if we didn’t have that for the rehydratable meals, got here to thoughts. There’s numerous them.
Nathan Jones: Oh, man. There are such a lot of issues that I’ve been simply actually glad to have right here with us. , I’m simply so grateful, they usually’re not right here with me, however I get their messages in my inbox, and I’m so grateful for my supportive household and pals that arrive to me right here digitally most days. And couldn’t do it with out them.
Kelly Haston: I’d second that. And I even get messages from a few of Nate’s household, which is superior. I’d say among the issues that I believe are actually necessary for us emotionally are the flexibility to have numerous books and issues to learn. And likewise, and it sounds a bit of humorous to say this, however the great variety of reveals and flicks that we’re ready to usher in right here, as a result of the crew has truly completed numerous watching collectively, and it’s one of many actions we do on prime of taking part in video games or, you realize, doing different puzzles resembling and so forth collectively. However with the ability to truly come collectively and have reveals that we form of deal with as our particular treats on the finish of the day collectively, that’s truly been actually, actually particular. And a part of our form of sample and our day by day habits. And I believe these have been actually necessary.
Anca Selariu: For me, it’s residing issues apart from people and microorganisms, after all. I’d not go to Mars with out being able to take different Earthlings with me. And I’d personally like to have representatives of all kingdoms of life and examine how they adapt to extraterrestrial circumstances.
What’s one exercise or merchandise your merchandise you’re kicking your self for forgetting to carry? Properly, I can’t actually consider something. I believe just about we have now all the pieces that we want right here, however there are issues that I would like, however the issues that I’d have preferred should not precisely approved right here, resembling bushes or cats. However I’ve photos of bushes and my good friend despatched me photos of cats and bonus science articles. So I really feel all set.
Nathan Jones: Possibly a pet mouse is likely to be within the playing cards sometime. , you be a science mouse, however—
[Laughs]
Anca Selariu: I’ve a stuffed bat if that helps.
Nathan Jones: Stated stuffed bat was by no means alive up to now, I ought to say that.
Kelly Haston: Yeah, undoubtedly.
Nathan Jones: A stuffed animal to start.
Anca Selariu: Only a toy.
Kelly Haston: We had some recommendations for issues to usher in and I introduced in possibly one pair of sneakers too many, and I want as an alternative I had introduced my moccasins or a special pair of sneakers that made me consider the outside and residential a bit of bit extra as an alternative of simply my trainers.
Nathan Jones: I truly can consider extra issues that I introduced that I used to be now notice I didn’t want then issues that I actually, actually, actually simply want I’d’ve introduced in with me. I’m positive she’ll hearken to this when it comes out. And so I’m simply going to take the second to say, my spouse would really like me to have introduced a barber with me. Hair’s getting a bit of lengthy and shaggy. However apart from that—
Anca Selariu: Let the file present I supplied.
[Laughs]
Nathan Jones: We we’re trying into it. So, in any other case, I’d say I’m doing fairly effectively so far as nothing I completely should have.
Ross Brockwell: I would really like the file to indicate that the haircut scenario is a part of the science being completed.
[Laughs]
Ross Brockwell: In order that’s my perspective on that. Equally to the footwear remark, I’d’ve introduced an extra pair of sandals. Only a comfort factor.
Nathan Jones: I’ve one different, simply because I throw one among these in each single one of many podcasts up to now, you realize, “world’s greatest,” I ought to have introduced, that is my solely probability to ever get to make use of one thing like this, “World’s Greatest Dad” mug. I imply, when else may you ever truly, I imply, possibly I’m although. , you by no means know. You by no means know.
Ross Brockwell: You might be the primary to say you’re the world’s greatest dad on two completely different worlds.
Nathan Jones: Doubt that’s true. However thanks. One thing to aspire to at the least.
Anca Selariu: And likewise, aluminum foil.
Nathan Jones: Oh yeah. Aluminum foil. Alright.
Kelly Haston: Alright. So it’s heading into spring and I do know that we’re fairly excited for spring. I personally am excited for the time change, even as a result of I haven’t modified my watch. And so now it will likely be on the correct time once more as an alternative of me having to do the maths every time I take a look at it. However what would you sit up for on Earth should you had been experiencing the spring? What does everybody miss?
Anca Selariu: Properly, I can say that I’ve lived in lots of components of Earth and spring has seemed very in a different way from one yr to the subsequent. And I do know it sounds cliche to say this, however I actually miss the biosphere wherever it could be. All the colours, all of the smells, all of the sounds of Earth. I miss wind and water in all types and solar. And I’ve by no means in my complete life been so conscious of my connection to Earth. The truth of being an Earthling by no means hit me as a lot because it did throughout these previous eight and one thing months. So I assume it’s an expertise that if all Earthlings obtained to reside by, they’d have a special perspective of how valuable Earth truly is.
Nathan Jones: Just a few years in the past, my household moved into home that had simply numerous tulips and different flowers planted across the property. And so top-of-the-line issues about spring is simply seeing these Easter lilies pop up and adopted by all the opposite varied flowers, all these colours, simply pushing up each single season within the spring, I ought to say. But additionally simply, you realize, the sound of like an enormous downpour of rain on the roof as you’re falling asleep. And even simply sitting and listening to one thing like that. Simply sort of lacking that in the mean time.
Ross Brockwell: Yeah, a pair issues got here to thoughts. I imply, the day within the spring the place it’s heat sufficient to go within the water with no wetsuit, it’s fairly nice, trigger often, it’s a sunny day and it’s heat usually, however when the water’s heat sufficient to return in with no wetsuit, it’s actually, actually nice. After which the day the place the Solar first comes up over the water can be actually, actually cool. Simply the colours and all the pieces, the sunshine solar, you realize, marking that summer time’s coming and it’s getting hotter. It’s nice.
Kelly Haston: For me, spring is a time the place my group comes collectively once more after a quiet interval. So I do extremely operating in my spare time. And although I reside in California, which is fortunate, and we truly are in a position to run pretty comfortably all year long, you realize, individuals take a break and there’s not as many races or occasions that folks participate in. In order that coming again collectively of each, the ambiance, the climate, the issues that everybody else simply talked about, after which additionally seeing individuals that you simply haven’t seen for a number of months, and the thrill of understanding that you simply’re dealing with an entire new yr of challenges or, you realize, a season of challenges in racing or no matter your private targets are when it comes to being open air with your folks. I like that sense of group that form of feels invigorated after a break. And also you simply are reminded of why your group is so particular and why these individuals are like a delight and a richness in your life. And so I believe that the spring all the time makes me take into consideration that in each the atmosphere and in addition individuals.
Nathan Jones: What’s developing within the subsequent month?
Anca Selariu: Growth, growth, growth. Properly, I’m actually hoping a drone, a rover mission as a result of I can’t wait to see the 2 little guys assist us do science once more and discover new components of Mars and discover attention-grabbing issues that we by no means anticipate finding.
Kelly Haston: So we have now a ton of particular events that I’m positive Nate may truly offer you some taste of. However I wished to additionally use this chance to provide a shout out to a few of our which might be based mostly at Johnson Area Heart.
Nathan Jones: Can not emphasize simply how nice NASA’s help techniques have been for us. And simply how they preserve us, you realize, part of Earth at any time when we’re so remoted. And that has been undoubtedly one of many highlights of the expertise. So far as milestones go, we’ve obtained St. Patrick’s Day developing. I’m unsure precisely how we’re going to have fun that. We’ll provide you with one thing inventive, I’m positive.
Kelly Haston: Now we have some inexperienced icing.
Nathan Jones: Now we have one thing, I’m positive we’ll provide you with issues. How precisely and when, we’ll see. I believe a day that we’re all trying ahead to is in mission day 278. We can have 100 days left on Mars. And I believe it’ll be a reflective time for us, an thrilling time for us. And simply to essentially going to start out, in all probability, what I believe numerous us are going to see as the start of the tip of our mission right here.
Ross Brockwell: Yeah. Extra of the identical. I’m trying ahead to seeing what they problem us with. And, you realize, these milestones are all the time one thing to notice. I really feel like we all know the fifths, there’s in all probability a fifth developing too, proper? 4 fifths developing possibly. However yeah, these milestones, once we hit them are significant. So numerous issues to nonetheless sit up for.
Kelly Haston: Any closing ideas?
Nathan Jones: No. Thanks everybody for tuning in and listening to us ramble each month. Possibly me greater than the others right here, however admire simply everybody’s curiosity in our mission and listening to us each month.
Anca Selariu: Group chant.
Nathan Jones: Oh yeah, let’s do it. 1, 2, 3.
All: Don’t die.
Nathan Jones: Properly, that was nice guys. Good job. Alright.
Host: Alright. That was the CHAPEA crew on their ninth month within the habitat. It’s all the time such a pleasure to listen to from the crew, and that is the second time we’ve heard from all of all of them on the identical time. And I don’t find out about you, each time I hear from the crew and simply listening to their power even after 9 months, they’ve such a beautiful and optimistic way of living that’s simply contagious. It’s great to listen to from them. Congratulations to the crew on 100 EVAs. Simply serious about that, the file for a U.S. astronaut and the variety of EVAs of their complete profession is 10. And now we’re speaking about on a Mars mission, them, as a crew, conducting 100 EVAs. It’s simply going to interrupt all information at any time when we get there. It’s one thing actually to sit up for. On the finish there, Nate talked about, you realize, thanks for listening to all of our rambling. Once more, I don’t find out about you, however I’m simply actually having fun with the crew’s journey, not rambling, simply listening to their perspective on life and the crew’s perspective on lacking Earth and lacking the sounds and the smells. I simply actually sit up for following them by the remainder of their journey and may’t wait till they lastly egress and get to get pleasure from Earth as soon as once more. And listening to their appreciation of life and of Earth after this whole expertise. It’s going to be actually inspirational. Alright, with that, let’s now change gears and speak with one of many consultants that’s refining the structure of a human mission to Mars.
Michelle Courtney. So joyful to have you ever on Houston We Have a Podcast.
Michelle Courtney: Thanks for having me on. I’m excited to be right here.
Host: You go by Coco. That’s a reasonably cool identify. What’s the story behind that?
Michelle Courtney: Yeah, it’s truly sort of a enjoyable one. So I did the HERA analog again in Marketing campaign 3. That is like 2016 timeframe. All of us had assigned roles within the mission and mine was the commander of the mission. There was one other crew member who had a really related identify to mine. So to distinguish, my nickname turned “Coco,” which was quick for “Commander Courtney.”
Host: Superb. And that interprets actually properly since you work now within the Mars structure staff with Michelle Rucker.
Michelle Courtney: I positive do. Too many Michelle’s on that staff. So we needed to provide you with a differentiation. And it’s actually helpful while you stroll in with a nickname that you simply truly like.
Host: Coco’s fairly good.
Michelle Courtney: It’s. As a result of usually while you get a nickname it’s not for an excellent motive. So this was an excellent one.
Host: Superb. Properly, Coco, inform us a bit of bit about you. You’re from Melbourne, Australia.
Michelle Courtney: Yeah, I’m. I’m an aerospace engineer. I initially got here from Melbourne, Australia. I obtained my diploma at RMIT, which is the Royal Melbourne Institute of Know-how. However then I got here to work within the U.S. and, particularly, clearly, within the aerospace business, however went on to develop a powerful background in structural design in each business plane and experimental automobiles. And that was air and house automobiles. Assume like NASA’s X-59 Supersonic Low Growth demonstrated that not too long ago obtained an important unveiling in Palmdale, California. After which I additionally labored at Virgin Galactic spaceship firm out in Mojave on their SpaceShipTwo automobile. Nevertheless it was whereas I used to be doing my masters in aeronautical engineering at Embry-Riddle, that was a couple of bit over a decade in the past. I took a stronger in curiosity in human elements and house medication. And that basically put me on the trail that I discover myself on right now. Really, it was after I was at Virgin Galactic, I utilized to and obtained chosen to that HERA mission that gave me my nickname there. So it was a very enjoyable expertise. I used to be part of an all-female crew. And yeah, once more, that’s the place I earned that nickname.
Host: Very cool. So, I imply, effectively, Melbourne, Australia, I ponder if there was one thing there, trigger you appear to hop throughout the pond and now and simply dive proper into. It looks like there was some possibly one thing in Melbourne you in spaceflight and aerospace. What made you make the transfer? That’s a drastic change.
Michelle Courtney: Properly, it’s a huge drastic change. I had all the time wished to work for NASA, but it surely wasn’t so clear to me after I began my profession a few a long time in the past that there was a selected path to get there. And as somebody who grew up overseas, that wasn’t so apparent. So by form of falling into varied aerospace roles, I finally made my means right here. And I discovered that the expertise that I gained in business was invaluable to my expertise right here and the sorts of contributions I may make.
Host: Was there a mission or simply one thing that impressed you to pursue that? As a result of that could be a dream that you simply say, you realize, to go full-fledged into, proper? Was there one thing that was taking place in your life? Possibly it was a film that you simply noticed?
Michelle Courtney: So I’ll credit score my father on this one. I grew up with a gentle stream of sci-fi motion pictures and books. So I assume that’s actually what impressed me to get into house.
Host: Properly, right here you might be and we’re very fortunate to have you ever we’re speaking about one thing so cool. Mars structure. I imply, it’s so humorous as a result of you concentrate on the Mars mission and the way it being far out, however each time, trigger this isn’t the primary time I’ve talked to any individual on the staff, it simply seems like, my gosh, you guys are so busy. So inform me in regards to the staff. What are you guys doing to remain busy and just be sure you’re defining these targets to assist NASA in a while?
Michelle Courtney: Completely. Properly, I’ll begin off by speaking a bit of bit in regards to the position that I’ve after which how that matches into the general staff. I put on a few hats. Firstly, I’m a part of the Engineering Directorate at Johnson Area Heart, however actually, I’m speaking right now in my position because the crew help techniques lead within the Mars structure staff. And that’s a part of our technique and structure workplace, which is below the Exploration Methods Improvement Mission Directorate. And it’s a system engineering sort position. There’s numerous cross directorate and mission directorate integration. We’re working by how agency-level targets for exploration will be composed into particular capabilities and use instances and the way they are often built-in with all the opposite facets of an structure such because the transportation system and habitation techniques and floor techniques in addition to entry, descent and touchdown. It’s about figuring out gaps in our data after which doing the evaluation to fill it in. And the staff that we have now, the dimensions varies a bit of bit, but it surely pulls in of us which might be wanted for specialised evaluation duties that we carry out every year.
I believe one of many nice strengths of this staff, which I actually adore, is that we’re from a various set of engineering and science associated backgrounds. And we have now such quite a lot of roles inside our staff and we’re unfold out throughout a number of NASA facilities resembling Johnson Area Heart, Marshall and Kennedy Area Flight Facilities, and Glenn and Langley Analysis Facilities. It’s a very enjoyable staff and I study one thing new daily. However my specific position is to make sure crew pushed capabilities and desires are captured and built-in into Mars structure that help crew well being and efficiency and crew operational issues. And to do this, I work hand in hand with the flight operations directorate and the crew workplace to make sure their perspective and operational issues are accounted for. However I additionally work intently with the human well being and efficiency directorate and Human Analysis Program that ensures that their experience and their requirements, like NASA Commonplace 3001 are represented within the Mars structure growth. These requirements are literally fascinating, by the best way, if you wish to know extra in regards to the human physique and what it may tolerate from its atmosphere and all of the bodily and psychological wants that people have. And there’s quite a bit. And to not point out all of the complexities of making an attempt to combine people into the automobile to work successfully with these techniques. I’ll wrap it up by saying once more, it’s a very enjoyable position and it scratches an itch that I’ve as an engineer and scientist to all the time continue learning and to search for inventive methods to make spaceflight achievable and hospitable to people.
Host: It sounds tremendous enjoyable and I envy it in some methods, however others it simply seems like so overwhelming that I truly don’t envy it. However I don’t know. For somebody who has dreamed about doing this for thus lengthy, I really feel prefer it’s in all probability your dream to do one thing like this.
Michelle Courtney: It’s. I believe if I may write a word again to myself 20 plus years in the past and say, “Hey, in 20 years you’ll be working at NASA and also you’ll be engaged on this staff and taking a look at human spaceflight to Mars,” I don’t assume I’d’ve believed myself.
[Laughs]
Host: You’re like, “Okay, yeah.”
[Laughs]
Michelle Courtney: Precisely proper.
Host: You have to be our third or fourth structure visitor. We’ve had so many conferences as a result of I discover it simply so fascinating. And the truth that we preserve constructing onto that is, I believe, much more fascinating. You’ll be able to inform there’s numerous thought being put into simply how will we get there. And we simply did this glorious sequence with Michelle Rucker not too way back. We labored along with her to do, and over the course of a yr, we did a sequence on this podcast referred to as “Mars Month-to-month.” And each episode can be one other facet to a human mission to and from Mars. It was a beautiful sequence. So I’m positive although issues have modified since we final had these conversations as a result of like I mentioned, it’s simply an ever-evolving factor. You may have numerous nice minds on this. In the event you don’t thoughts simply taking us again to that sequence, what we talked about and possibly a few variations that you simply and your staff are already engaged on.
Michelle Courtney: Yeah. So if I recall the sequence sort of kicked off with it “Making ready for Mars,” which was an summary sort of Mars 101. Michelle Rucker launched that, and I believe the next components of that podcast sequence that, that month-to-month podcast delved a bit of bit extra deeply into a few of these matters. So issues just like the “Rendezvous for Mars” ones talked in regards to the issues of orbital mechanics and what we have to take into account for propulsion and length of spaceflight and trajectory. And increasingly not too long ago, our staff has been contributing to analyzing the commerce house choices. So we have now much more information obtainable once we’re prepared to start out making some selections about such issues. I believe you additionally checked out some deep house transport choices and what sort of parts you must get to Mars, propulsion techniques, habitation techniques, and the kind of trajectories to get there for a protracted length transit.
And actually, there are numerous similarities there to the Artemis Gateway automobile below growth. So there’s steady evaluation happening into how Gateway’s automobile challenges may additionally assist resolve related for a Mars transit automobile. Let’s see, what else did you speak about? You talked about packing for Mars and logistics is an attention-grabbing one, and that’s a subject I undoubtedly need to hit a bit of bit later once we’re speaking about CHAPEA. However taking a look at logistics, the necessity to carry all the pieces with you. Let’s see, we’ll speak about that a bit of bit extra I believe in a while, as a result of that’s intrinsically linked to CHAPEA. And among the issues that we might get out for the structure, one among my private favourite matters, is the “Eat Like a Martian” podcast. If of us need to return and hearken to that one, I actually get pleasure from doing the sensory testing at JSC Meals Labs. We get to style the meals that the crew members get to eat. We get to charge it on its style and its look and its texture and its aroma. It’s much more enjoyable than going to your native huge field retailer and making an attempt these samples on a weekend. I’ll let you know that a lot.
Host: Yeah. We did that one with Grace Douglas.
Michelle Courtney: Oh, I find it irresistible. It’s a lot enjoyable. It’s such a important half to human well being and efficiency. So the shelf life and vitamins stability is essential, but in addition selection, menu fatigue is an actual factor. I don’t know should you like me, battle on the finish of the day to go, “What am I going to eat for dinner tonight?” Think about being a crew member on a protracted length mission to do this. And when it comes to structure, additionally trying on the temperature storage vary that you’d put these things to extend their shelf life that will have some fairly huge structure implications for us. Take into consideration the quantity, mass and energy your fridge makes use of. In order that’s one factor that’s being checked out, in the mean time.
Additionally in your sequence you had the “Stay Like a Martian,” and that basically talked in regards to the physiological and psychological challenges of being a human on a planet that has decreased gravity, however notably after a very lengthy time period for deconditioning. And that one featured our colleagues over within the Human Analysis Program and what they proceed to do to help nice work finding out the impacts on the Worldwide Area Station and different analogs and analysis tasks. From an structure standpoint, one of many huge issues we have now is how quickly will crew be able to carry out their mission as soon as they’ve touched down on the floor? As a result of they’ll want an structure that’s supportive of that. If they’ve to hang around within the land for a couple of days and want some aids to assist them, we have to be certain that these capabilities exist for them. If they should get out to an ascent automobile in a rush, we additionally want to make sure that we have now an achievable means to do this.
One other one you talked about, ‘Sticking the Touchdown,” that checked out entry descent and touchdown automobiles. Now we have two actually huge challenges there. Touchdown the place we need to land and creating a human rated automobile that may land safely, and that may carry ample crew and techniques and logistics to maintain them happening a floor. That could be a problem with the expertise that’s obtainable right now. In order that facet is one thing that we have now ongoing analysis and evaluation into in the mean time.
Michelle Courtney: “Welcome to Mars” seemed on the atmosphere, the climate, the ambiance. Not a lot new so as to add there. It continues to exist, however from an structure standpoint, it positive poses some challenges. Designing techniques that preserve crew and automobile techniques on the proper temperatures. And with ample energy, for the reason that danger of mud masking any photo voltaic panels may scale back power manufacturing and shut down techniques ultimately, like we’ve seen on a few of our robotic missions up to now.
“Suiting up for Mars,” that one seemed on the complexities of spacesuit design for a hostile atmosphere. Do not forget that fits are principally private sized habitats for crew to stroll round in. Once they get to Mars, they’ll have further challenges like managing planetary safety. That’s not about asteroids hitting a planet that’s about stopping cross-contamination of microbes. And among the issues we’ve been serious about not too long ago when it comes to swimsuit techniques are the challenges of choosing what strain and oxygen proportion that the fits should should help mobility. If in case you have an excessive amount of strain, it makes it actually onerous to maneuver round. Think about these fits, you realize, those that folks put on which might be unicorns or dinosaurs they usually attempt to stroll round and it’s tremendous inconvenient to stroll in them. So think about a spacesuit overrated like that. The mobility is actually tough to do this. One other factor with fits that we have now to think about is how lengthy it takes for crew members to regulate to a special oxygen proportion. And that’s actually necessary to forestall decompression illness. And just like that, we even have to consider the supplies that we decide within the spacesuits. Not simply within the spacesuits, however within the habitat as effectively, trigger they’re going to wish to fulfill flammability necessities due to that greater oxygen proportion. And since flame doesn’t behave in the identical means it does in decrease gravity or a no gravity atmosphere. So there’s among the issues that we’ve been taking a look at extra not too long ago when it comes to swimsuit techniques.
Then I believe the newest one was “Returning the First Martians.” It checked out how a Mars ascent is achieved. And it’s sophisticated to say the least. Aim is clearly getting crew and floor samples again to Mars orbit. Our staff has not too long ago been doing extra evaluation on alternative ways to gas an ascent automobile, together with choices the place we would use in-situ useful resource utilization, resembling mining ice, to make the gas. However I’ve obtained to let you know, it takes numerous infrastructure and power and processing time and switch logistics to get that gas to an ascent automobile in order that we’d have a solution to stability the chance with the prices and complexity of doing so. So not so easy. However I believe that’s just about the sequence in an entire, it was a captivating sequence. I had numerous enjoyable listening to it.
Host: Oh good. Thanks a lot Coco. We had numerous enjoyable with it and it’s so humorous. Thanks for going by such element too with every of the components of the sequence, trigger it was not solely was it sort of revisiting it, but it surely was a pleasant recap of all of the various things that we talked about. What I discovered attention-grabbing was a few of these issues. There’s such a seemingly possibly small facet can change your complete structure factor. The one I locked into was just like the shelf stability of meals and packing and the way that may actually change what you must put into the design of a automobile that’s going to and from Mars. In the event you can repair or not repair, should you can tackle shelf stability. I imply, it modifications the mission nearly prefer it’s like these small little issues which have such a big effect. Because of this we’re serious about Mars missions is as a result of it’s the small print. The satan’s within the particulars.
Michelle Courtney: It’s the analogy that we love to make use of inside our staff is that that Mars structure is sort of a balloon animal. In the event you squeeze on one leg to alter a selected variable or parameter, you’re actually doubtlessly pushing the issue some other place. So it’s important to take a look at it extra holistically. And this is the reason from an structure standpoint, we need to look throughout the mission and throughout all of the completely different subsystems and sub-architectures to have an understanding of how these little modifications can have huge ramifications general.
Host: It’s big. Additionally, since we’ve had this sequence, NASA launched this blueprint for Moon to Mars Structure. And that is what we had been speaking about within the very starting once we talked about we’ve had a few conversations already with friends who’ve addressed this blueprint for a what’s referred to as a Moon to Mars Structure. So final yr we had Kathy Kerner on to speak in regards to the structure doc. It’s been a while since we talked along with her. What has modified since that dialog?
Michelle Courtney: Properly, there was the newest revision of our structure definition doc, and that was launched in January this yr. And we’ve continued to decompose our Moon to Mars targets extra robustly and in addition refine our definitions of the lunar segments. We’ve expanded and communicated our structure extra definitively when it comes to sub-architectures, resembling information techniques and administration and infrastructure help and in-situ useful resource utilization techniques and autonomous techniques and robotics. And we’ve launched a brand new set of white papers on varied matters, they usually apply to the Worldwide Area Station and lunar and Mars matters. However since I’m on staff Mars, I’ll spotlight the Mars ones. They embody Mars mission abort issues, comms disruption and delay, floor energy era, human well being and efficiency, and round-trip mass challenges. After which lastly there’s the important thing Mars structure selections white paper, which lists seven selections that our staff is engaged on with built-in help throughout the company.
Host: Now, the Mars structure, it’s a part of this grander imaginative and prescient of how we evolve from Artemis, proper? From these first missions, from the human floor return throughout a sustainable Mars presence. So I ponder if we will tackle that for only a second. Let this blueprint. And now when you concentrate on a Mars mission and also you speak about a few of these refined modifications simply to the sequence, now while you fold in how this evolves from the Moon, how has that impacted a few of among the work within the Mars structure staff?
Michelle Courtney: So let’s take a step again and take a look at why we discover. The NASA imaginative and prescient for exploration facilities on the worth it offers to humanity. And it could possibly be broadly grouped into three areas. And these we all know as our foundational pillars. So there’s science, there’s inspiration, and there’s nationwide posture. And let’s begin with the science one. And that’s about understanding how our photo voltaic system fashioned. I imply, that’s an apparent one, however there are additionally bodily and organic sciences and helio and astrophysics as effectively. And as we study extra, it may be used for advancing expertise and offering financial growth, which actually crosses us over into the nationwide posture piece. Exploration packages present a big alternative to develop our worldwide partnerships and in addition showcase what the U.S. has to contribute. And eventually, there’s inspiration. And I’m personally right here speaking to you proper now as a result of I used to be, and admittedly nonetheless am, very impressed by spaceflight and all that’s been achieved. And all that we will accomplish. Inspiration obtained me into aerospace engineering and aeronautical science. And it retains me right here. Offering inspiration like this can be a implausible solution to encourage of us to get into STEM. But when we need to get a bit of bit extra particular on the Mars aspect, speaking about structure, so we’re already clear on why we discover, however subsequent we have to work on the “how?” That’s an enormous query we have now. And we have to do it in such a means that we will present long-term approaches in order that we will accomplish exploration repeatedly and including to our capabilities in order that we will reveal we will meet our exploration targets. This doesn’t imply we’re going to fulfill all our targets directly, but it surely does imply we should be clear about what they’re earlier than we work out approaches to perform them.
Host: As a result of the Mars mission specifically could be very, very advanced. And we tackle simply how these small issues, these small parts of a holistic people to Mars mission have such nice affect on the mission as an entire. So you actually have to think about all the pieces so particularly.
Michelle Courtney: Yeah, you do. It’s actually a techniques engineering strategy to establish these expertise and functionality gaps. And we word them as capabilities and use instances and we use these two to fulfill Moon to Mars targets and people targets, they’re deliberately sort of generic, sort of high-level trigger we want them to face as much as the check of time in order that while you learn them, they’re actually onerous to argue with. They’re the plain issues that we need to truly go do. These capabilities and use instances, they get extra granular down from these targets after which someday they get changed into program necessities and mission ideas of operations. In order that’s sort of the way you circulate down from these targets to getting right into a program that truly will get to go implement them. And that’s actually a special strategy to how we had been doing it up to now as a result of we will evaluate and distinction that to what we’ve been calling architecting from the left. Primarily, what we’ve been doing quite a bit up thus far, and that is likely to be choosing one thing trigger it exists, it’s handy, we will go seize it and go use it. Or possibly we create a constraint that may artificially restrict what targets we may accomplish. An instance of that is likely to be choosing a selected date for a mission to occur. And that might restrict us to what could possibly be developed, what capabilities could possibly be offered inside that timeframe as a result of we haven’t given ourself sufficient time to have a look at further ones. However that’s simply not how we need to strategy this going ahead.
Host: Yeah. That’s so architecting from the correct. You begin with the targets. You say what’s it that we actually need to do? After which work out, trigger numerous these items, we take a look at the how the Moon to Mars Structure evolves. It begins with a human lunar return. After which there’s all of those completely different phases of building and maturing a presence on the lunar floor. And numerous that’s developed into Mars. So I believe how—in phrases from the Mars perspective—this is able to affect, there’s quite a bit that we’re going to study in these years on the Moon. A part of the explanation that we’re doing it so to work out these challenges, your techniques challenges, all these various things. After which, you realize, should you outline the targets, among the performance, among the applied sciences you should use to perform these targets will mature and refine so you possibly can have an excellent Mars mission design. So it’s such as you’re constructing in evolution to your Mars structure design.
Michelle Courtney: That’s precisely it. In order that’s what the lunar segments are actually about. It’s displaying a functionality improve throughout the segments. So the human lunar return is about getting boots again on the bottom over there. After which the capabilities improve while you take a look at foundational exploration, that’s possibly including some extra mobility parts there. After which the ultimate lunar phase that they’ve recognized is sustained lunar evolution. And that’s actually about rising a lunar economic system. Including, once more, extra of these capabilities for a sustained presence there. So once we take a look at Mars, Mars is in a bit of little bit of a special scenario trigger we’re actually on the sort of human lunar return form of part of simply defining what we would like in that first phase. And we’re nonetheless understanding what that’s going to seem like. We’re engaged on one thing referred to as a Mars resolution roadmap, an structure roadmap to work out what we do first. And actually, two of the choice works that we’re progressing by in the mean time is taking a look at what would that first phase seem like for Mars? After which how would we construct up these capabilities throughout the missions of that phase. So what’s the house? There’s extra to come back on that.
Host: That’s proper. I assume you’re mirroring numerous what we’re seeing within the finer components of a lunar mission. And people three steps from human lunar return to a sustained lunar evolution, the steps which might be there on the Moon, that is what you’re doing. You’re making an attempt to construct that from a Mars perspective, trigger you actually are going to should, you could possibly construct an infrastructure on the Moon, however that doesn’t imply you decide it up and place it on Mars. You’re going to study quite a bit there to determine precisely what to do on Mars.
Michelle Courtney: Completely. There’s quite a bit that we’re going to study from the Artemis missions and the capabilities and the expertise that we develop for that. And numerous the applied sciences, we like to have a look at them and say, “Hey, is that this a Mars ahead expertise? What about that expertise is one thing that we may use to help people and exploration on Mars as effectively?”
Host: I thought of that while you had been revisiting the Mars sequence. You talked about that final of our episodes, the human lunar return, and the phrase you used is like an infrastructure for supporting, you realize, fueling and in-situ useful resource utilization for that Mars return automobile. Having the readiness to have the ability to entry that automobile in a second’s discover, or at the least in a extra fast method. A few of these issues you could find throughout numerous the extra mature phases of a lunar mission. Once you begin, “Okay, what does infrastructure on one other planet seem like? Let’s construct it out.” You’ll be able to study, take numerous these classes and capabilities and put it on Mars.
Michelle Courtney: However once we do this, we additionally should accommodate a couple of further issues. Now we have to accommodate the truth that it’s additional away. Now we have communication delays. Now we have a special ambiance. Now we have completely different temperature ranges that exist on the planet as effectively. So we will study from the lunar atmosphere, however we additionally should tweak it to match what we’ll discover once we go to Mars.
Host: That’s crucial. Yeah. It’s not copy paste.
Michelle Courtney: It’s undoubtedly not copy paste.
Host: Properly, you realize, you’re studying quite a bit now with CHAPEA. It is a huge analog mission that’s informing, I’m hoping, and that is a part of why we’re having this dialog, is how CHAPEA informs the structure aspect. So, let’s begin in the beginning. , how has your staff been working with CHAPEA from an structure perspective? What angle are you serious about with the CHAPEA mission?
Michelle Courtney: So the Mars structure staff has labored intently with CHAPEA on a couple of of the areas that they wanted help with. One instance was communication delays. They had been asking, “Properly, how lengthy ought to we set a communication delay inside our analogs in order that we will make it sensible and we will perceive what sort of affect that has to activity completion and as a stress it accrue?” So we offered them some data there they usually additionally requested us about some logistics, the consumables that crew would want. And we will speak about that one a bit of bit extra later as effectively. So we offered some suggestions they usually’ve additionally requested us about the kind of duties that we would anticipate crew would carry out on the floor of Mars. As a result of once more, they wished to construct a comparatively sensible schedule and set of duties that crew would want to carry out on the market as a result of it’s actually an built-in analog. You need to have issues arrange as a lot as potential. So the sorts of duties and calls for on crew time are fairly just like what we’d anticipate on a Mars mission. In order that they’re the sorts of issues that we’ve been requested for up to now.
I imply, the advantage of doing that’s the kind of information that we get again is extra intently consultant and that we may doubtlessly use that as a part of our structure growth. So actually it’s sort of an built-in loop there of us making an attempt to assist set it as much as be extra sensible after which getting information units again that may assist inform our structure as we design it.
Host: Superb. You talked about a few issues. You talked about consumables; you talked in regards to the duties all through the day. What are among the items of recommendation and what are among the design parts that you simply handed on from the Mars structure staff to CHAPEA?
Michelle Courtney: So when it comes to logistics, we definitely took a take a look at among the previous utilization charges that we might see on the Worldwide Area Station. However we needed to tailor them extra for a mass floor atmosphere. We additionally needed to reply a query about how lengthy do we expect crew ought to be capable to take a bathe for? Which was an attention-grabbing dialogue. Once we had been taking a look at comms delay with the space that we have now between Mars and the Earth, it may be as much as 22 minutes a technique. So think about asking a query of somebody, ready 22 minutes for them to get it reply and one other 22 minutes, and getting that reply again, I imply, 44 minutes round-trip on a response is a tough solution to talk. However I’d truly say within the present day and age, we do numerous that already. Once we ship a textual content message or an e-mail, we don’t essentially get that response again. However should you’ve ever waited for the little textual content message response to comeback, it may be irritating. So I imply, these are the sort of experiences which might be necessary to use to those analogs to get an actual sense of what affect it has to the crew and their day by day operations.
Host: It’s huge from a behaviors perspective too. I do know among the behavioral scientists got here on this podcast and we’re speaking about the advantage of an analog that was very consultant of the time delay. We talked about like little issues that may affect your complete perspective of a Mars mission. Possibly it seems like a bit of factor, but it surely’s such an enormous factor. The delays, it impacts your complete means that you’d conduct a mission. It’s so completely different from what we all know.
Michelle Courtney: It completely does. And it may change the best way the crew time is spent and the crew schedule. Crew time is a kind of facets that I believe we’re going to proceed to get numerous information out of analogs resembling CHAPEA. It’s a important commodity throughout our Mars missions. Identical to air and meals and water and power. Individuals don’t consider crew time as a commodity, but it surely actually, actually is. So usually I’ve heard of us joke that crew are going to be bored on such a protracted length mission. However in actuality, that’s extremely unlikely. I imply, you simply take a look at the ISS day by day schedules for example. There’s a lot to do. In reality, typically there’s an excessive amount of to do. And crew want that downtime to relaxation and get well and be at full efficiency. And that basically comes into the behavioral well being facet as effectively. And bodily efficiency aspect too. So, I imply, an enormous chunk of daily goes to be taken up by repeat duties like sleeping and train and consuming and private hygiene and speaking with households and pals or simply some quiet time. And also you may’ve already burnt about two thirds of your day by the point you get there, so with that point remaining, we have now to make sure that crew can nonetheless full mission duties like automobile monitoring and upkeep and doing science. And after they’re on the floor, going and doing floor exploration and EVAs, within the spacesuits and even preparation for going and doing these EVAs can take a very long time.
So with all that in thoughts, you realize, how does CHAPEA assist us? It helps us see how crew reply to their day by day duties and general workload. What stresses does it introduce? How does that have an effect on their behavioral well being and efficiency in addition to staff dynamics? Analogs also can present a possible platform to check how these stresses and impacts will be mitigated. Mitigating them is necessary, trigger if we don’t, we may lose that invaluable crew time if crew efficiency isn’t sufficiently supported by the structure and its corresponding mission idea of operations. We don’t need to plan poorly. Trigger if we plan poorly, then we don’t have the crew time we thought we might to do the enjoyable exploration half. In order that’s a technique analogs like CHAPEA present invaluable insights that can be utilized in structure growth.
We’re going to study a bit of bit about quite a lot of sub-architecture matters. So logistics was one. Crew time is one other, but it surely all has to suit into that general structure. So we actually attempt to knock down the variety of data gaps that we have now. So evaluation for Mars and Mars missions, it’s been happening for many years. A very long time. And we’re on the level the place we actually need to converge into making a few of our key important selections on Mars structure. So we have now been making an attempt to map out which selections are extra important if we reply these specific questions. We actually scale back our commerce house right down to a smaller set that we will then concentrate on and preserve transferring in the direction of getting a refined structure that we will someday implement. And there are seven key selections that we’ve recognized and that had been included within the latest up replace of the structure definition doc. And there’s truly a corresponding white paper about these seven selections too. So I can speak a bit of bit extra about these if you wish to hear about it.
Host: Let’s go into it. Yeah, that’s thrilling.
Michelle Courtney: So let’s speak about among the key Mars structure selections. So not too long ago we’ve publicized that there are seven ones that our staff is working. And we’re doing that with numerous built-in help throughout the businesses. And these selections are Mars science priorities, preliminary human Mars phase goal state and goal state cadence, and variety of crew to Mars neighborhood, and crew to Mars floor trigger these two numbers, they won’t be the identical quantity. And the ultimate two are lack of crew danger posture. And eventually, the floor energy era expertise. And a few of these are going to be multi-year efforts. Others could come collectively sooner. However the level with these is that once we make these selections, we’re on our solution to shrinking the Mars structure commerce house by working by the important selections alongside the trail.
Host: Is it extra targeted on like capabilities? Is it capabilities-focused as a result of not numerous efforts that we’re doing now are addressing these, so let’s tackle them now and construct out the capabilities? Or possibly it’s broader than that.
Michelle Courtney: Properly, think about you’re beginning with a clean piece of paper and also you’re making an attempt to work out what you must know first earlier than you may make an entire bunch of different selections. These seven selections are similar to that. If we will make these selections, then we have now a spot to maneuver on to subsequent. Proper now, there might be so many various selections that we have now to make as a part of an structure. However the seven that we’ve recognized, these are huge, heavy hitters that push us right into a course the place we will proceed to make selections and refine right down to that structure. So sure, they’ve to fulfill the capabilities and that they completely hint again to our targets. Nevertheless it’s actually about refining our commerce base down to a degree the place we will converge and say, “That is what a future Mars program can seem like.”
Host: Going into it, is the Mars structure staff assured in these seven that if you are able to do that, you realize, trigger you mentioned we’ve been engaged on this for 50 years, proper? So if we outline these seven, it’s strong sufficient the place we at the least have the framework that’s not going to alter an excessive amount of over time. Is that basically the strategy to the seven?
Michelle Courtney: Yeah. So the strategy to the seven actually got here right down to mapping out which sorts of selections we have to do and which of them find yourself on the important path. So when you’ve got a call that will then affect one other 20, or you might have one resolution that solely impacts one different factor, you’re going to reply the query that impacts one other 20 various things, trigger there’s numerous comply with on details. So by mapping all the choices and the precursor and circulate down relationships, we’re in a position to establish very, in a short time which of them we wanted to reply first. And that’s actually the place the seven got here from.
Host: There you go. You created the map. You understood the place these, such as you mentioned, heavy hitters, the issues which have numerous selections trickling down from them. These are your seven.
Michelle Courtney: There’s an important white paper on this subject. In the event you’re , you possibly can go to the Moon to Mars structure web page at NASA and take a learn by that. It’s only a few pages there, but it surely highlights our methodology and why we picked these seven.
Host: It’s a very simple web site to go to nasa.gov/moontomarsarchitecture. There you go. And we’ll put that within the present notes as effectively. Properly good to wrap it up with CHAPEA although. Trigger I believe, you realize, what’s good as you’re taking that is perspective, I finish this with all of our particular friends as a part of this Mars Audio Log sequence is speaking about this analog specifically, it’s such a big built-in analog. We’ve talked with numerous particular friends from numerous completely different disciplines and gotten their perspective. And I ponder from the Mars structure staff perspective, why is an analog like CHAPEA so necessary for the work that you simply do?
Michelle Courtney: CHAPEA offers an analog alternative that’s infinitely extra accessible. It’s more cost effective and it’s decrease danger than testing in house. Particularly for the reason that variety of crew that we will ship into house is proscribed. And since we haven’t recognized but precisely what habitation techniques or automobiles will use for Mars, there are some issues that we will’t actually study or check till we take them into house. Particularly when you think about issues like the results of zero gravity. However actually, there’s quite a bit we will nonetheless do on Earth and that’s why CHAPEA right here and different analog environments are actually necessary.
Host: It’s superb. Coco, thanks a lot for approaching Houston We Have a Podcast and diving into Mars structure, one among my favourite matters. It was such a pleasure to have you ever on.
Michelle Courtney: Thanks. It’s been my pleasure.
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Host: Alright, that’s it for Audio Log #9 from Dune Alpha. Thanks for sticking round. I hope you’re having fun with the crew’s journey. This once more is the ninth audio log in our sequence. Tune in as soon as a month to examine in with the crew. Take a look at nasa.gov for the newest on what’s taking place in CHAPEA and nasa.gov/podcasts to hearken to our assortment of episodes in addition to the numerous different reveals we have now throughout the company.
If you wish to speak to us on social media, we’re on the NASA Johnson Area Heart pages of Fb, X, and Instagram. You need to use #AskNASA in your favourite platform to submit an thought or possibly ask a query, simply make sure that to say it’s for us at Houston We Have a Podcast. The recordings had been despatched in from the CHAPEA crew in March of 2024. And we had the dialog with Coco on April 1, 2024. Because of Will Flato, Dane Turner, Abby Graf, Jaden Jennings, Dominique Crespo, Anna Schneider, and Laura Sorto. Because of Michelle Courtney for taking the time to come back on the present. Because of Grace Douglas and Jennifer Miller for his or her efforts in reviewing these audio log episodes. And an enormous due to Kelly Haston, Ross Brockwell, Nathan Jones, and Anca Selariu for sharing their expertise for this viewers on Houston We Have a Podcast. Give us a score and suggestions on no matter platform you’re listening to us on and inform us what you consider our podcast. We’ll be again subsequent week.
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